In this issue we address the Fifth House of the chart. My aim in this column has been, and still is, to encourage you to visualize the houses of a horoscope as the map of an individual’s projections. We see, through the house placements, those parts of an individual’s personality which s/he tends to meet through significant others. We are aware that s/he may encourage these others to BE that part, rather than expressing that potential him/herself.
Mars, for example, includes our sense of self, identity, assertion, will, anger. If we are uncomfortable with that assertive, angry side of ourselves, we may project it and attract other people who are willful, selfish, angry, etc. or simply strong and assertive. If Mars is in the Third, we may project into siblings or other collateral relatives; in the Fourth—into a parent; in the Eleventh—into friends, etc.
The Fifth House is our creative potential: whether that be artistic creation or the physical creation of children. It’s where we pour ourselves out into the world (physically or emotionally) and hope for a bigger, better response (love, admiration, applause, money). This can range from love relations to teaching and acting to gambling and investments. Here, our EGO is involved. We seek recognition, acknowledgment. We want to be proud of whatever is in our Fifth House. And excessive hubris, as the Greeks knew, can lead to tragedy.
Mars in the Fifth ties identity to ego: “My identity is to be a star.” Personal magnetism may be great. There is often a strong instinct for drama, especially the dramatic action and an attraction to acting, teaching, etc (whatever puts the individual up on stage.) At one of our 16-day Intensives, five of us were in the back yard, discussing Mars in the Fifth which we each have. All five of us have been (or are) in drama—in school or professionally. The individual desires love, attention, admiration for just being. Pride, ego, confidence, enthusiasm, and energy are often high.
Suppose, however, the native is out of touch with that Mars. Then s/he is likely to project it into lovers and/or children. These significant others may be admired for their strength, drive, energy, and will. Or they may be detested for their belligerence, selfishness, or foolhardiness. All are forms of an excessive use of Martian energy.
Another possibility is the person who expresses his/her Mars ONLY during the creative action (be that artistic, loving, etc.) E.g., some artists are quite blunt and direct in the message of their medium, but fade away in face to face encounters. People who see me teach and lecture guess me as a strong fire person (Mars in the Fifth). Actually, if we count sign and house placements, fire is my weakest element, and in ordinary life, I come across as air/water/ earth in about that order.
A Fifth House Mars urges for creative self-expression or an independent form of creativity. Thus, it may be rash where investments or ego expansion is involved (depending on aspects, etc.) Art may be used as a forum for freedom.
Parents with this placement generally prefer not to be too tied down by children. They often choose to have just one child. (Mars is bored by repetition.) There can be a strong identification with children. Often the native has one child with whom s/he strongly identifies. This may be a challenge if people identify so strongly that they lay trips on their kids. E.g., “You can be the pro basketball player I never was!” Another side is the very free approach, giving lots of space to the kids because the native wants lots of room him/herself. Some people value freedom and independence so much, they do not want kids—too confining.
The parents meet and learn to recognize their own assertive, self-oriented, independent needs through their kids. On a positive level, parent and child(ren) are active, confident, independent, and assertive. On a negative (projective) level, one or both are argumentative, violent, selfish or so much a free soul they split the scene.
Similar patterns can occur with lovers, projection and all.
Some form of physical activity is highly advisable. Fire needs to be active, and this is a double-fire combination —not to be confined! They need space in their close love relationships: either built in deliberately, or unconsciously created through projection. (E.g. By attracting free soul types, we keep the freedom we actually want.)
Venus in the Fifth is a natural square: part of the fixed dilemma. Our urge to take risks and grow is at odds with our desire to relax, indulge and remain stable. It is a good artistic, creative combination where Venusian harmony, balance and beauty are poured out into the world.
One’s capacity for pleasure, beauty, sensual indulgence is tied to ego in this case. One possibility is the person ego-involved with his/her appearance and physical beauty. Or one whose money and material possessions are felt as an extension of the self so that s/he is ego-threatened when those possessions seem less than they ought to be in one’s prideful eyes. Or someone whose capacity to indulge the appetites becomes a source of pride and self-esteem.
If we project, our lovers and/or children may do our artistic expression for us. Or express our security-oriented side: amassing money, possessions, etc., or simply sticking to the known and comfortable. They may indulge sensually, perhaps to excess, to “make up for” our lack when we repress that side of our nature.
Our significant others may be beautiful, easy-going, comfortable and sensual. They may also be materialistic, boring, indulgent and hedonistic.
This is generally a charming combination, but its grace is a two-edged sword. If handled properly, Venus is the potential for mutual pleasure and ease. If misused, Venus can be totally passive—expecting all to happen beautifully, without any work. Or people can treat each other like possessions. Love translates to ownership.
Mercury in the Fifth wants fun. This is a light-hearted (fire-air) combination. Words generally flow easily and often wit as well. There may be much exaggeration.
Such individuals see their minds and communicative abilities as source of pride and self-esteem. They seek admiration and applause for their intellectual prowess. Their dramatic feats are often verbal.
If this is projected, the individual may attract bright, verbal lovers, or have mental, talkative children. If the projection is excessive, significant others may be verbose or over-do intellectualization or be too detached.
Since Mercury is a natural ruler of the Third House, any unresolved issues we have with siblings (or other collateral relatives) may be faced anew with lovers and/or children. We may attract loved ones who remind us of a sibling. We repeat with them any unfinished business around learning, communication, peer exchanges, and the mind until we can integrate the knowledge. They may act as positive or negative role models in this area.
The Moon in the Fifth is an intensely emotional (fire-water) combination. It is also normally very nurturing. This is a placement generally very oriented towards having and being involved with children. The natural flow of the creative energy is into mothering.
Such people are ego-involved with the mother principle. They need to be proud of their nurturing/dependent abilities. They seek praise for their care-taking function.
This ego-mother blend was generally first met in their own mother or mother figure. A Fifth House Moon suggests a flamboyant or dramatic, emotional nurturing parent. Mother was a role model for the individual in learning to be a star. If she over-did that, she may have dominated, over-shadowed or been theatrical and egoistic. If she handled it well, the individual learned to see mothering as a creative, joyful and exciting experience.
The pattern will often carry on to the next generation. This placement includes the potential of mother (or mother figure) as a role model for one’s own children. That is, you might have a child who reminds you very much of your own mother. Issues unresolved with your mother (dependency, nurturance, security) will be faced again in your relationship to this child.
The learning can involve dependency as well as nurturance. One potential of this placement is a person parented by his/her own child(ren). Similarly, we may meet the mother principle through our lovers, attracting people who yearn to mother, care for and protect us. Or, attracting dependent people who expect us to nurture and look after them. The challenge is to reach a mutual relationship (inter-dependent) with lovers and not fall into a parent-child schema which can easily happen with this combination. With children, we must nurture in a balanced way. If we’re too ego-involved in mothering, we may do too much for them. If we expect them to nurture us, however, we are demanding too much from a young child in terms of ego support, etc. Balance is important, and what creates the challenge to balance is the intense emotionality of this combination.
Sun in the Fifth is its strongest, “purest” spot. This doubles the need for stardom. It is essential people have a creative outlet which garners them love, admiration, applause. If misused, we may expect our children to automatically bring the desired attention and respect. We may expect lovers to always admire us.
If excessively projected, we attract lovers and kids who glory in the limelight (doing it “for” us) and we get miserable and jealous in the shadows off-stage. Ideally, with lovers and children, we form mutual admiration societies. Each of us sincerely praises, applauds and admires the other for her/his talents. We support each other’s ego and self-esteem.
Well handled, this indicates a super-creative person. The energy may go into teaching, drama, sales, performing arts, etc. There is zest, magnetism, joy and enthusiasm for life. Abused, and we can have ego-mania, grandiosity and the perpetual star. Or, the individual may be TOO ego- vulnerable (totally dependent on approval, admiration from others). The last usually results in the person setting him/herself up for put- downs, disappointments because the need for positive regard is SO exaggerated. Or, the person who gives it all away through projection, surrounding him/herself with exciting, dynamic, magnetic, creative lovers and children and wondering, “How can they put up with dull, little ole me?” This is a potential dynamo and much more fun to do yourself instead of just watching and applauding others!
Ceres in the Fifth is another very nurturing combination, although the individual may choose to work with kids rather than having children him/herself. (Many do both, of course.) Like the Moon, issues with mother or mother figures may be faced again through lovers and/or children. With Ceres, issues may involve work as well as nurturing/dependent principles. And the child may end up care-taker to the parent.
This is a fire-earth blend, and normally very productive. The work is tied to the creative energy. Such people seek work in which they can receive attention, applause, admiration. They often work with children. (Performing arts are also possible and nurturing work which includes medical and paramedical fields.) Natives may work with their own children (a working partnership) as well as other people’s. Teaching is very common with this combination.
Work may be done with a lover or lovers as well. And mothering issues must be faced with lovers as well. It is easy for the native to fall into an Earth Mother role with lovers. We may do everything for our lovers, be super-productive, nurturant, etc. Or, attract lovers who desire to do everything for us.
Vesta in the Fifth is another strong fire-earth combination. Again, the individual takes pride in her/his ability to do a GOOD job. The work is often creative, e.g. performing arts (or arts in general), teaching, entertainment, etc. Work with children (one’s own or others’) is quite likely. Vesta, unlike Ceres, is more likely to work with others’ children than to have one’s own. Ceres generally has children.
Vesta is the “workaholic” asteroid and one reason this is such a good combination for artistic endeavors is its single-minded focus. People with this placement have the determination and endurance which are essential to success in the entertainment and/or artistic world.
This doggedness is not always as useful in relationships with lover and children. One side of Vesta is its criticalness: analyze what is wrong in order to improve it. Vesta in the Fifth may over-do fault-finding and nit-picking to one’s own ego, children and/or lovers. (If projected, we attract lovers/children who chronically criticize us and/or themselves.)
Vesta has a puritanical streak connected to its work ethic. And I have sometimes found Vesta in the Fifth with sexual blocks or blocks around having children. I think the psychological basis is the work/critical emphasis. Some people are so afraid of being criticized (and expect it), they develop a sexual block to keep people away. “If they can’t get too close, they won’t see my flaws.” Sometimes, people project their block, e.g. attract partners with sexual problems. Either way, intimacy and the dreaded criticism are kept at bay. There may also be a work ethic component to the block: “I should work, not have fun. I’m not good enough (productive enough, etc.) to have fun.”
In terms of children, the block is often the critical one: “What if I don’t do it right? What if they end up flawed?” Parents with this placement need to be very careful of their expectations of parenting. They may be overly critical of themselves as parents and/or of their kids. (And at least one child is likely to be a strong “workaholic”, self- critical type who will need a strong role model to NOT be judgmental, to be able to relax and enjoy life.)
A common expression of a Fifth house Vesta in a woman’s chart is a total commitment to her children as her “life work.” Only after the children are older is she willing to work outside the home. The “really good job” symbolized by Vesta cannot be done if attention and effort are split between family and outside activities. The choice (conscious or unconscious) not to have children may be the other side of the coin if the individual is strongly committed to a professional role. (This is less of an issue for men in our society, due to sex roles.)
Juno and Pallas in the Fifth are highly artistic-creative, especially in the visual arts: photography, design, architecture, etc. These are fun, sociable combinations (fire-air): into enjoying relationships and creativity. Both tend to be quite expressive.
They are also partner-child interchanges. That is, it becomes easy to treat children as partners and/or partners as children. Such people may have on-going peer relationships with their own children even after they are grown. The parents have an innate capacity for treating their kids as peers—equals.
The children often have the artistic-creative talent inherent in this combination as well. If projected, children or lovers may express the artistic potential the native would not allow in him/herself.
Our relationships with lovers and children are teaching us to be equalitarian. If we handle it well, these relationships tend to be fun, communicative and lively. There is often a strong competitive as well as cooperative spirit. As long as it is not over-done, competition can be shared and add zest and drama to the relationship.
We trip ourselves up by demanding total equality too soon from our kids (before they can handle it) and/or by trying to turn lovers into children (power-playing them rather than treating them as peers.) If projected, we may attract overly-competitive lovers or lovers who treat us as children rather than equals.
Pluto in the Fifth is another intensely emotional (fire-water) combination. It is a power-oriented placement. The tendency is to take over and take charge. It is a natural fixed square, with tremendous sexual, sensual desires. The potential for power struggles (with lovers, children, mates) is very great. The issues at odds will generally be shared pleasures or shared resources. Power plays and manipulative acts around who earns it; who spends it; saving vs. spending; who enjoys what and who does what to whom, are possible. Sex may be used as a weapon.
People with this placement need some power in their lives. Ideally, they gain some dominance and renown (even on a small scale) through work, an avocation (preferably creative) or self-exploration. Then, the power drive is less likely to spill over to personal relationships with kids, lovers and mates. (The basic distinction between lovers and mates is the time-frame and commitment. There is less commitment to lovers and they are often short-term compared to mates. Mates are more often live-in.)
There is often charisma and the power drive may be channeled into sales, promotion, teaching or other forms of persuading others. This is a natural for psychodrama: a therapeutic tool utilizing the creative, dramatic energies. Investments can be a source of power, particularly handling other people’s resources with Pluto. This can vary from stockbroker to I.R.S. investigator, seller of government bonds, etc. Some people are attracted to the occult (especially black magic) because of the potential there for power.
If handled negatively, the lover relationships (including children) are a chronic battleground. Life seems one long power struggle. We fight and attract people who fight for dominance. If totally projected, we attract children and/or lovers who power-play and control us. In extremes, this can include abuse, sexual and otherwise.
There is also an inner conflict between outward expression (Fifth House) and inner searching (Pluto). This steamy (fire-water) combination may hold in emotionally and then explode periodically (even into violence). This may be a characteristic of the native or his/her lover/children.
There is intense emotionality here. If handled well, incredible transformations and growth are possible. It is a marvelous combination for creatively re-structuring one’s own ego. One’s love relationships may be a great source of inspiration for self-examination and regeneration. If misused, the abuse and destruction can be equally incredible.
Jupiter in the Fifth ties ego to the search for an absolute. This is another intensely charismatic and fun-loving combination. Confidence, especially, is high (double-fire). It may be too high, leading to heedless behavior. (The ego may be extended to infinity: “I’m ‘God’; I can do anything.”) Impulsivity may be an issue. Restlessness is very strong and travel likely.
Since Jupiter is a key to beliefs and values, faith may be placed in lovers, applause from others, children, self-esteem, etc. The search for perfection is tied to close love relationships.
In some instances, the native will turn sex into “God”, ala Freud. Others search for the perfect lover. Since Jupiter symbolizes the intellectual absolute, the quest for an ideal lover is basically the search for a guru. We may wish to play wise teacher to our lovers or seek lovers to tell us the answers to all the mysteries of the universe. Since Jupiter is also freedom-oriented, very often the search for an ideal lover is merely a rationalization for keeping one’s independence. We may search forever, never being satisfied. Or, attract people who are never quite satisfied with us.
In terms of children, perfectionism is high. Curiously, this can result in two extremes. Some people make kids an ultimate value and have many, many. Others want only perfect kids in a perfect world, so skip the whole thing. (Again, thus keeping their freedom to search for absolutes in other ways.)
When children are there, the native needs to watch his/her standards. Jupiter could be called “Great Expectations” and parents may expect perfection from themselves or their children. (The same can be true of lovers.) Intellectual standards, particularly, tend to be high. Jupiter wants all the answers, and is ego-involved with finding them. And, of course, they must be RIGHT!
With Jupiter in the Fifth, we are ego-involved with our search for a world-view. This can be someone who needs praise and ego-support for his/ her faith. It can symbolize an extremely persuasive religionist or a passionate idealist. If projected, the individual may pick religious, idealistic, perfectionistic, or intellectual lovers and/or children. Traveling, learning, searching together (with lovers/children) for the truth and ultimate knowledge is a positive manifestation of the Fifth House Jupiter.
Like the Sun in the Fifth, there is often incredible generosity, since the native has the faith, “I can always get more.” Fortunately, the self-fulfilling prophecy usually bears that out.
Saturn in the Fifth is fire-earth again: very creative and effective if the person is in touch with it. The individual desires to concretize his/her creative power in the world, generally through a career. Thus, it can be a professional artist. Or a teacher, stockbroker, entertainer, etc. Any vocation which pours out in the world, hoping for a bigger return is possible.
If mishandled, this can be a very uncomfortable position. Saturn, as well as being a work letter, is also a critical letter. In fact, it is very close to what Transactional Analysis calls the Critical Parent part in each of us. Saturn in the Fifth can manifest as a severe wet blanket on one’s ego needs and desire for applause. Such people are often their own worst critics. It is especially likely to manifest as a creative block: down-grading one’s own artistic, creative efforts, seeing them as no good.
Saturn is oriented towards control and predictability. Its two extremes are over-ambition (dictator-types) and self-blocking (over-control of self to the point of being afraid to try anything.) People will manifest either or both negative extremes if they have not integrated their Saturn into a productive, starring career. Extremes can vary from an individual attempting to rule the world through charisma and exaggeration, to a person so blocked, they totally hide in the corner, afraid to risk any ego-expansion.
In terms of children, a career with kids is one of the possibilities, as is eventually working with one’s own children. Our children help teach us the reality principle with this placement. Ideally, we learn together to be practical, realistic, productive, and responsible. Extremes involve over-doing or under-doing these Saturn behaviors. Examples include the super-disciplinarian parent; the critical parent; the guilt- ridden parent (constantly criticizing him/herself); the non-parent who is blocked from having kids due to anxiety around responsibility, fear of failure, etc.
Since Saturn symbolizes the area of life where we learn the limits of our own power, a Fifth House Saturn may be associated with children who need extra help. The parents may be learning to do all within their power and then to let go emotionally; to recognize that no one can take total responsibility for another person.
Children may parent their own parents, if the native projects his/her responsibility, strength onto the child(ren). Control struggles are quite possible. Often there is a child who role-models the father or father figure. Any issues unresolved around the conditional love parent (control, responsibility, predictability, power, practicality, etc.) will be faced again through this child. We learn to do what must be done and face the consequences of our actions. We learn to accept and work positively with personal responsibility. We learn to see responsibility as power rather than as guilt or blame.
Blocking may occur in the sexual area. (Again, it may be projected: repeatedly attracting partners with sexual problems.) Generally, power is one issue. The native fears being hurt, put down, criticized or rejected (exactly what s/he does to him/herself.) So the person builds a psychological wall for protection. Intimacy is seen as vulnerability and loss of control. Of course, sex can be made into a career as a prostitute, pimp, etc.: the ultimate wall to intimacy through sexuality.
A major problem here is that Saturn is often at odds with the Fifth House need for love, admiration and approval. In T.A. terms, the Fifth house is our need for strokes—recognition from others. Saturn tends to be judgmental and this placement can act out in discounting, i.e. devaluing others’ feedback, opinions, compliments. The native tends to set up his/her own inner critic which gives more negative messages and not accept the more positive statements from the outside. There is a predilection for feeling undeserving of love, admiration, etc. If carried to an extreme, that results in attracting lovers (children) who treat the individual like the piece of dirt s/he feels. It is excellent for anyone with this placement to practice giving, receiving and BELIEVING compliments. Do it over and over and over again. Then do it for another month or two.
One nice thing about this placement is that Saturn symbolizes the willingness to work. Saturn endures. So these people are generally willing to work at their problems, which gives them a good chance at overcoming them. Once we master the challenge of Saturn, it is where we give and teach to others, through a career, etc.
Uranus in the Fifth is a natural opposition. The fire-air blend combined with the nature of Uranus and the Fifth tends towards extreme restlessness. Part of the ego need is to be unique, individualistic and unpredictable.
This is also one corner of the freedom-closeness dilemma. The Fifth House wants to love and be loved. Uranus wants no ties, total freedom. If this is a strong conflict in the rest of the chart, the individual must work to integrate it. Some people flip from one extreme to the other. They play independence till loneliness overwhelms them. Then they play domesticity till claustrophobia sets in. They flee back to freedom, etc. Others repress one end of the see-saw, denying its existence in them. That need then rules from the unconscious and may eventually result in physical illness.
Many people project one end of the dilemma: pick a significant other to do it for them. An amazing number of people “give away” their Uranus (especially women for whom Uranus is a non-traditional style of behavior). They then attract “free soul” type lovers who are always leaving. Remember, we set this up on a non-conscious level. By consistently choosing lovers who leave us, we maintain our freedom and need for space, even though consciously that is not what we want. Or, lovers of a very different sort (race, creed, etc.) may be chosen as an act of rebellion. Or, lovers who do the weird, eccentric, kooky things we won’t allow ourselves to do.
Similarly, children often play out the Uranus a parent is afraid to do. But, as is generally the case in projection, they OVER-do to “make up” for the under-doing of the parent. Such kids may be fiercely independent, non-conformist or rebellious. They often adopt some very weird ideas, behaviors, attire, etc. They do the free soul bit to an extreme for the parent who is afraid to do it at all. (Please, do not get the idea that I am saying the parent MAKES the child do it. People are responsible for their own behaviors. A child does the free soul act because s/he has tendencies in that direction anyway. What the parent does, sometimes, through projection, is encourage that child to do MORE of the free soul thing. Of course, this is generally NOT done consciously.)
Ideally, if both parents and child(ren) do the positive side of Uranus, they are friends. Each can allow the other individuality and freedom of expression.
In terms of creativity, this combination is INTENSELY original and creative. The artist or persuader is likely to rebel, or at least be avant-garde. S/he may seek unusual mediums, individualistic statements, or go in for humanitarian causes. Both Uranus and the Fifth House are future-oriented, risk-taking, wanting change, growth, expansion of opportunities. Both are into pushing back the limits!
Neptune in the Fifth is highly dramatic (even theatrical), romantic, emotional and seductive. The artistic/creative talent and feeling for beauty is very strong. It is super for sales, persuasion, films, and all forms of casting an illusion. There is tremendous creative imagination. If handled well, there is the ability to make almost anything look/sound beautiful.
This can be a supremely unrealistic combination, with the ego expanded to infinity. The native may expect life to always flow and be lovely and support and applaud him/her. Some people cling to veils and self-delusion rather than facing the truth about their ego needs in regard to children, lovers and creativity.
This placement (like Jupiter) is a search for perfection. People may idealize love or sex. They may search for the perfect partner. But, where Jupiter is more likely to opt for freedom in the end, Neptune is more likely to go for illusion. We convince ourselves that we have found Prince or Princess Charming only to be disappointed later. The fairytale mentality is strong. We may also attract artistic or helping-healing lovers (a form of projection). Or we can choose victims, while we play Neptunian savior (always with flair in this combination). Or we can attract spiritual, religious, and/or idealistic, perfectionistic lovers. Hopefully, we are spiritual and idealistic together and share our search for infinite love and beauty. If it is projected and either partner expect the other to find or provide or be the infinitely beautiful dream (physically, emotionally) for him or her, the relationship is doomed to disappointment.
Among the extremes that are possible with this placement are Freud’s deification of sex as the ultimate reality of life (He had Neptune and Jupiter in Pisces overlapping the Fourth and Fifth Houses); religious celibacy which denies sex to attain a sacred state; and promiscuity which sees sex as an ultimate goal and source of fulfillment, seeking a mystical union with the absolute and hoping each new partner may supply the key to the ecstasy.
We can also project Neptune in terms of children. We may (like Jupiter) turn children into an ultimate value and have lots. We may want only perfect children in a perfect world, and so have none. We may demand perfection from the kids and/or ourselves as parents. Whereas Jupiter wants all the answers and intellectual perfection, Neptune wants infinite love and beauty (physically and/or emotionally). The yearning is for total harmony and ease. This can be a severe problem if conflicts are buried over with “niceness”, playing saint or pretending they aren’t there. The strong emotionality (fire-water) can play havoc with the body if repressed too long and not dealt with. We may also project our artistic talent into children and let them do it for us. Or attract children who are victims, so we can be savior. Or savior children who let us play victim.
An understanding of Neptune is aided by familiarity with the “Rescue Triangle” of Transactional Analysis, especially examining the Victim and Rescuer roles.
Playing a Neptunian role is a vital part of one’s ego and self-esteem. It is a source of attention and applause. The more one plays the positive Neptune roles—artist or savior, i.e. helper/healer—in appropriate ways with lovers, children and one’s creative side, the less energy will be left to spill over to the negative Neptunian role of victim. The combination makes for charismatic spiritualists, seductive idealists, superlative actors, actresses and dramatic martyrs. Neptune is grace and beauty and harmony, but must be handled with care.
In summary, let me remind you that everything must be interpreted within the context of the whole chart. Which sides of a Fifth House placement are most significant will be indicated by aspects and the other placements of the chart. This column, hopefully, gives general principles. Although I give some specific examples to illustrate, it is clearly impossible to cover all possibilities. If you stay with the core idea and look for repeated themes in the framework of the whole chart, you will have a useful, helpful delineation. Taking one thing out of context and ignoring other indicators or seeking specific details (rather than the reasons behind and FOR the details) is not helpful to clients or oneself.